Is it ethical to let the thread go way over 300 posts?
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Morals and Ethics
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 nirbas |
Morals and Ethics |
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Posts: 8729 (02/20/09 4:08 PM) Breezy Cheese |
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32486 (03/07/09 12:27 PM) Reporter Cheese |
I know we've talked about the issue of parents who forget their children in cars and the children end up dying of hyperthermia, but I've forgotten
where I came down on the issue of whether these parents should be prosecuted.
Well, one of my favorite Post writers wrote a brilliant story about the issue in this Sunday's magazine; it'll break your heart. This is what the best journalism does -- it takes you someplace where you've never been (and God willing, where none of us will ever be.) But I was nearly in tears by the end of it. I thought I had pulled myself together, then my Mom called and she immediately was like "what's wrong?"
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03/07/09 12:33 PM.
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 FinnanHaddie |
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Posts: 10859 (03/07/09 1:12 PM) Fishy Cheese |
Wow, what a story. It actually changed my mind a little. i used to think the parents should always be prosecuted, but now I think it isn't always necessary
and is sometimes cruel. Every case does need to be thoroughly investigated, but if there's no evidence of neglect, abuse, substance abuse, or intent,
I'm not sure what purpose is served by dragging the parent through court, except maybe keeping such incidents in the public eye as a warning or reminder to
other parents.
I still don't understand how any parent with a car seat doesn't establish the habit of double-checking the back seat before leaving the car, nor do I understand the notion that manufacturers of any warning device would be held liable if it malfunctioned because that doesn't seem to apply to the makers of those back-up cameras and sensors that some cars come equipped with. But I also think it's a bit of a cop-out for parents who've left a child in a car to insist that these devices are needed. They would be useful back-ups, but what's needed is one second of parental awareness before walking away from the car. |
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32489 (03/07/09 1:18 PM) Reporter Cheese |
But if you think, you REALLY believe, that the child is where he or she should be, then why would you check your car? I mean, I will say that after reading
this story, I would check my car even if I have a clear recollection of dropping the child off. But I can see why some parents don't. And then the tragedy
happens.
Gene is such a good writer. |
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FinnanHaddie |
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Posts: 10863 (03/07/09 4:07 PM) Fishy Cheese |
Miss Moppet wrote:That's the whole point: do it anyway. Use your eyes to confirm what you think, because memory is fallible but well-established habits become automatic, like my habit of confirming that my car keys are in my hand or my pocket before I shut the hatch or that my lights are off before I walk away from the car. |
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suekel |
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Posts: 6558 (03/07/09 5:05 PM) Travelling Cheese |
That was a really, really well written piece - thanks for bringing it here Moppet. I tend to think that in cases where an exhaustive investigation shows no
signs of neglect or intent, there should not be a prosecution. These are, in most cases, tragic horrible accidents. I would bet that each of the parents who
did this would have said prior to it happening that it could never happen to them. It's just so sad.
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Zuleikha |
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Posts: 4685 (03/07/09 5:27 PM) al-Jubna al-Raaqisa Cheese |
But I also think it's a bit of a cop-out for parents who've left a child in a car to insist that these devices are needed. They would be useful back-ups, but what's needed is one second of parental awareness before walking away from the car. But I think the whole point is that under the right circumstances, anyone can lack that second of parental awareness. All of the parents in the article dropped their children off without a hitch many, many more times than they didn't. I'm sure there are other parents who've had near misses where they've forgotten their child in the car, but not under circumstances that led to tragic results. I'm pretty paranoid about things like door locking, checking for keys, turning off stoves, etc. but I have both left the door unlocked and locked my keys in the car under exactly the types of circumstances the writer described--a slight change in the routine, a distraction at the critical moment, and my brain thinking the automatic habit had happened when it hadn't. The devices add a layer of check to that--make something happen that shouldn't be happening if the routine had been followed. I don't know that they'd prevent all cases, but I think it's likely it would help. I'm sad the aftermarket device invented by the NASA scientists hasn't been able to find a maker. I never made the connection between a rise in incidences of child deaths by forgetting in cars and passenger side airbags causing children to be moved to the backseat. What a horrible, unintended consequence! |
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zan |
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Posts: 12916 (03/07/09 6:42 PM) Bishop Cheese |
Moppet, IIRC, in the last conversation about this subject, you didn't really take a position on prosecutions but
were basically arguing that the fact that a parent may feel incredible amounts of guilt after one of these events should not be a reason to not prosecute a
parent. I haven't read the story yet but it sounds as if it would confirm what I already believe - that this kind of thing could happen to anyone and
that, absence any sign of neglect, parents shouldn't be prosecuted. And really, I have absolutely no problem seeing how a change in routine could lead to
this kind of horrible tragedy. This is one of my major fears, should I have kids.
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32493 (03/07/09 6:49 PM) Reporter Cheese |
That is right -- thanks for reminding me -- yes, I was saying that feeling guilty shouldn't in itself be a reason for something like this not to be
prosecuted. I may have been wrong about that. I'm not sure I can possibly fathom what kind of guilt and anguish someone would feel in this situation. This
story just gave me a taste of it.
Damn. I kind of hate Gene for being such a good writer. I'm jealous. |
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iMissEthan |
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Posts: 7184 (03/08/09 1:26 PM) Dilled Havarti |
The bit about the military woman breaking through the crowd to comfort the defendant really got me. As did some of the descriptions, but I'm trying really
hard to forget about them.
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32509 (03/08/09 1:54 PM) Reporter Cheese |
I know what you mean. There's one description I can't put out of my head.
I can't stop reading it, but that's because I'm trying to absorb the structure of the story. |
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ren au |
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Posts: 3782 (03/08/09 2:19 PM) Australische Kase |
Its a brillantly written story.
Its strange, because I'm trying to think of the cases where its happened in Australia, and the majority of them (that I'm recalling) are parents who have knowingly left their kid in the car. I really can't remember one that's happened here where it was an accident. Its where parents have dashed into the shops and left the kids in the car (sometimes because they were asleep) or where a mother left her four kids in the car when she was inside playing the pokies. Of the numerous ones, I can't recall any that were just tragic accidents. etaI just finished it and am crying at that sucker punch at the end. What a wonderful woman to even consider doing that for them.
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03/08/09 2:24 PM.
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onefire |
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Posts: 3556 (03/08/09 6:37 PM) SpongeBob SquareCheese |
Yes, there is one description I can't forget too, Moppet. I wonder if we're thinking of the same one. The article is haunting. Thank you for sharing
it, because it did give me a new perspective on the tragedies that happen.
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Ethnic Sidekick |
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Posts: 353 (03/08/09 10:37 PM) Swiss Cheese |
That was a great story and an important reminder of just what we may lose with the possible demise of print newspapers.
Speaking of prosecuting parents here's a story that presents a case that is a bit more morally troubling. Is there a point in sending this mother to prison? When I began reading the article I was filled with rage and despite my disagreement with the death penalty I would have happily guillotined this woman myself. By the end of the article, while I had little sympathy for her, I could see that given her low IQ and functionality she was clearly unable to cope and that the system failed her children. Generally, I am the first to start screaming about personal responsibility when someone says, "the system failed" but here I really feel that the authorities were called and they collectively shrugged their shoulders until irrevocable damage was done. Here's the story. It had me literally in tears at my desk on Friday. Happily, no one saw me so my reputation as a hardfaced prick is still intact.
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03/08/09 10:41 PM.
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32511 (03/08/09 10:41 PM) Reporter Cheese |
Oh, I know this story, it's quickly becoming a classic (among journalists). The St. Pete Times is one of the most "literary" newspapers in the
country, so it's always experimenting with different methods of telling stories, and this has become an example of great long-form journalism. I'm
curious, ES, how'd you stumble across it?
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Ethnic Sidekick |
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Posts: 354 (03/08/09 10:53 PM) Swiss Cheese |
I followed a link from Dan Savage's blog at the Seattle Stranger. Though, I am sure I have read an article or two published by the St. Petersburg Times
and have each time marvelled at the quality of the reportage.
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32512 (03/08/09 11:07 PM) Reporter Cheese |
Indeed. Though sometimes we joke that a story in the St. Pete Times about a bank robbery would start: "The harsh Florida sun beat down mercilessly on the
small strip shopping mall, home to nothing but a wig shop, a grimy convenience store, and a branch of Bank of America, its once lively red, white, and blue
logo faded to weak pastels...."
One Times reporter that I know wrote a 9-part series about the St. Petersburg Zoo. I mean, yeah. Just like "a day in the life at the zoo," but for like 10,000 words. This story was much less indulgent, though.
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03/08/09 11:11 PM.
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Ethnic Sidekick |
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Posts: 355 (03/08/09 11:19 PM) Swiss Cheese |
Um, I think I'll read that zoo article later. Yeah, that's right, later....
What market does this newspaper serve? I have this notion that Tampa isn't a huge market and that colours my impression of the quality of their articles. Mind you, I have no idea of where Tampa is (other than in Florida somewhere) or anything else about the area. |
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Miss Moppet |
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Posts: 32513 (03/09/09 12:35 AM) Reporter Cheese |
Definitely read the zoo story. It's full of animals...and...things like that.
Tampa and St. Petersburg are very close to each other on the west coast of Florida. The two cities themselves only have about 500,000 residents, which is smaller than the Sunday circulation of the Washington Post. (The surrounding communities have a lot of people, though) There are two newspapers that serve the area, the Tampa Tribune and the St. Petersburg Times, and the Times is owned by a nonprofit organization that exists to promote the intellectual development of journalism and journalists. So the newspaper is a bit of a laboratory, and is known for having excellent writing. But it's suffering now just like every other newspaper in the country. |
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suekel |
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Posts: 6562 (03/09/09 9:38 AM) Travelling Cheese |
Oprah featured that girl's story on her show a week or so ago. It's heartbreaking that although she has made a lot of progress, much of the damage done
to her can't be fixed, because the primary time for her brain to grow and make connections is past. Hooray for that family that adopted her - to me that is
just an amazing act of love.
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djeber |
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Posts: 2453 (03/09/09 1:14 PM) Milk&Cheese |
That story made me think of the X-Files episode "Home."
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